アウンサンスーチー インタビュー

実施日:1998年7月15日 July 15, 1998
場所:ビルマ ラングーン Rangoon, Bruma

●ビルマの現状と民主化への道 The Road to Democracy

-ビルマ(注1)の現在おかれている状況をどうとらえるか。

誰にとっても興味深い時期だ。同時に厳しい時期でもある。皆さんも御存知の通り、私達は8月21日迄に国会を開会するよう要求している。私達は8年間とても忍耐強く待ってきた。国民もまた彼等の意志が実行されることを8年間忍耐強く待ってきた。今こそ、政府が何をするつもりか、また国民や民主主義運動に対してどのような誠意を示すかを観察する時期だ。政府はこれまで常にビルマの民主化を望むと公言しつづけてきた。

Q : How do you describe the situation in the country at the moment?

Aung San Suu Kyi : Well, it's a very interesting time for everybody, and it's also a very crucial time. As you probably know, we have asked for a Parliament to be convened before the 21st of August. Now we have waited very patiently for eight years, and the people have waited patiently for eight years, for their will to be implemented, so this is a time when we have got to see what the government is going to do, how much goodwill they are going to demonstrate towards the people, and towards the movement for democracy. After all, they have always claimed that they want to democratize Burma.

-軍事政権(注2)は早い時期にNLD(注3)と対話の機会を持つと思うか。

私達は遅かれ早かれ対話すべきだと主張してきた。もちろん、早い時期に越したことはない。国会開催についてお互い話し合うことは賢明な事だ。私は今が一番良い時期だと考えている。

Q : Do you think it is likely that the military regime will have dialogue with the NLD soon?

ASSK : We've always said that they will have to have dialogue sooner or later, and we've always hoped that it would be sooner rather than later! I would have thought now was the best time, because prior to the convening of Parliament it would be sensible for both sides to talk to each other.

-ビルマ人の生活状態をどう思うか。

不幸だ。御存知のように、経済的状況や教育制度はとても悪く厚生は貧しい。他に何があるだろうか?人々は貧しい生活を送り、子供たちは正しく教育を受けておらず、また適切に健康管理がなされていない。変革がない限り、将来はとても暗いものになりそうだ。だからビルマ市民は変革を望んでいる。望んでいると言うよりも、切望し、祈願しているだろう。

Q : Will the NLD convene Parliament with or without the military?

ASSK : This is not something that I can answer now, but what I can tell you is this, that we consider it our responsibility to implement the will of the people, and we will certainly not fail in carrying out our responsibility.

-政権とNLDの対話は、ビルマ市民の生活向上に役立つだろうか。

対話は大多数の市民にとって有益な解決法を見つける方法である、というのが私達の見解だ。全ての人々に有益な万能の解決法はないが、対話は前進するための方法や、長年にわたる諸問題から抜け出す方法を見つける手段になるだろう。

Q : What do you think is the position of the average Burmese in the country?

ASSK : Unhappy. The economic situation is very bad, as you well know, and the education system is very bad, health care is poor, so what do we have left? People are poor, their children are not getting properly educated, their health is not looked after, the future seems very bleak, unless there is change. So I would say that the average citizen in Burma is hoping for change, not just hoping, but longing and praying for change!

-国際社会は対話への道を加速させるのに役立つか。

国際社会がそのような意志を持っているのなら、有力だろう。なぜなら人間が一人で生きていけないのと同様、国も孤立しては成り立たないからだ。国際社会に対話への道を加速させる意志があれば、対話の実現に向けて大きな役割を果たすことができるだろう。

Q : Do you think that the international community will help accelerate the road to dialogue?

ASSK : We think that the international community can help if they have a will to do so, because in this day and age, as no man is an island unto himself, no country is an island unto itself, not even a country like Japan or England, which are geographically islands. So the international community certainly can do a lot to help accelerate the process of dialogue, if they have the will to do so.

-NLDが明確な代替案を持っていないのではないかとの意見を持つ外国政府関係者もいるが、それについてはどう考えるか。

代替案について明確に話せない理由が2つある。第一に、私達は多大な嫌がらせや迫害を受けている政党であり、ことがらを不用意に明確にすると、人々を問題に巻き込むことが多いからだ。第二の理由は、私達の代替案が新たな考えや提案に対して、オープンであり柔軟なものであることである。私達が柔軟でなければ対話を要求してはいない。私達は独自の計画を持っている。それについて現政権、SPCD(注4)と議論したいのだ。非暴力の方法、つまり対話と議論を通じて私達の計画、希望を実行したいのだ。それゆえ私達の計画やスケジュ-ルは柔軟なのだ。

Q : There has been some concern among certain diplomats that NLD does not have a transitional plan that they can support?

ASSK : Well there are two reasons why we cannot talk about a transitional plan. First of all you have to recognize the fact that we are a much-harassed and persecuted party, and it is not in our interest to reveal our plans, because usually that gets our people into trouble. Also, there is another reason -- we do have a transitional plan, but we are open to suggestions. It's a flexible plan. If it were a plan that were inflexible, then we would not be calling for dialogue, and this is not what we want. We have always said that we don't want a zero-sum solution. We have our plan, of course, but we want to talk it over with the authorities, after all, it is at present the SPDC which is in power, and since we want to bring about change through non-violent means, that means we want to bring about change through dialogue and negotiation, so our plans, our hopes, our timetable as it were, is a flexible one, and it would be subject to negotiation and discussion. If we were to present a plan as "This is what we want" then where would be there room for negotiation?

―軍事体制や外資企業(注5)の中には、対話が行われ国会が開催されると、自らの地位が危うくなるのではと心配する向きがある。それについてはどう考えるか。

私達は繰り返し、この対話が敗者や勝者を生み出す討論ではないと主張している。この対話は双方にとって、対話に参加する双方を含む全ての人々にとって、有益なものとなる。私達は誰かを罰しようとは考えていない、誰かを窮地に陥れるつもりもない。私達の希望は、できるだけ多くの人々が参加する国民和解の達成だ。模索したいのは参加者全てが勝者となる回答、方法だ。

Q : Certain key players, including the military regime, and some investors, are afraid of that, because they may lose their positions in a country in which dialogue has taken place and parliament has been convened. What is your response to that?

ASSK : We have said again and again that dialogue is not a debate in which there will be winners and losers. A dialogue will be a process through which we can come to a solution which will be beneficial to the great majority of us, which would be of benefit to both sides, or to all participants in the dialogue process. We are not out to punish anybody, we are not out to crush or annihilate anybody, that is not our way, that is not our policy. What we want to do is to bring about national reconciliation, so that as few people as possible will lose out from the process. In fact what we want to find is a solution that will be a win-win one, a win-win solution for everybody concerned.

―最近の状況の中であなたが危険にさらされているのではとの危惧がある。自宅前での攻撃やラングーン市外に出ようとした際に車を包囲された(注6)のがその例だ。あなたの個人的な安全についての状況はどうか。

詳細には語れないが、私は他のビルマの人と同じような状態下におかれている。独裁体制下では法が作用しない。誰も安全ではない。だから法の支配のない国にいる人々と同様安全ではないとしか言えない。過去10年間は最も危険な時期だった。

Q : There has been concern that you might be threatened owing to recent developments, for instance the attack in front of your house, being surrounded in your car when you attempted to go out of Rangoon. What is the situation with regard to your personal safety?

ASSK : Well, I'm as safe as anyone in Burma, which of course is not saying much, if you are under a dictatorial regime, because when there is no rule of law, nobody is really safe. So I can only say that I am as safe as anybody can be in a country where there is no rule of law.

―あなたとNLDが軍部に対して、国内でいたずらに騒ぎをおこしているのではないかとの批判があるが、どう考えるか。

私達は如何なる挑発もしていない。NLDにとってではなく、ビルマの人々にとって何が妥当かを問いかけているだけだ。国会開催の要求は1990年に表明された国民意志の確認を要求するのと同じ意味だ。だから私達は何がビルマの人々にとって妥当かを問いかけているのだ。私達が8年間辛抱強く待ってきた事実の前で、そのようなことが挑発や対立として見なされるべきではない。8年は本当に長い時間だった。もし国会開催が国内の不安定を誘発すると考え、恐れる人々がいるならば、私達にその不安を話してくれればよいのだ。そうすれば国会開催が国の安全を脅かすものでないことを含め、相互理解を進めることになるだろう。

Q : There has been concern about your personal safety, and that the NLD is provoking a confrontation in the country, with the military. What is your response to that?

ASSK : Well, we are not provoking any sort of confrontation. We are only asking for what is the due, not of the NLD, but of the people of Burma. To ask for the convening of Parliament is tantamount to asking for the recognition of the will of the people as expressed through the elections of 1990. So we are only asking for what is due to the people of Burma. That should not be looked upon as a provocation or a confrontation, particularly in view of the fact that we have waited patiently for eight years. Eight years is a long time to wait for somebody to keep his promise, so I do not think we are provoking anybody. [If] they are afraid of anything, if anybody is nervous that the convening of Parliament will lead to instability within the country they only have to talk to us about it, so that we can come to a mutual understanding, whereby there will not take place anything that will upset the stability of the country.

―NLDはこの数週間で何を準備するつもりか。

私達の意思を詳細に説明することはでない。しかし、国民への公約である民主化を進めるための、また国民のためになすべき全ての準備はできているとだけは言える。

Q : What will the NLD be prepared to do in the next few weeks?

ASSK : I can hardly give you a blow by blow detailed account of what our intentions are, but I can only say that we are prepared to do everything that we need to do in order to serve the people, and in order to keep our promise to the people that we will work for democracy.

―過去数年の間に、日本政府からの援助やビジネス上の投資というような、ビルマ経済への事実上の資金援助が見られる。このような行為はビルマ市民を助けることになるだろうか。

現在の状況下で、ビルマに対する投資はビルマ市民を援助していることにはならない。日本がビルマに対して好意を持ち接しているのは理解するが、日本政府がビルマを援助する時、彼らはビルマ政府ではなくビルマ国民のことを考えなくてはならない、ということを重ねて申し上げたい。

Q : Do you think that by supporting the government of Burma the Japanese investors will be able to make a profit? Do you think that investment in Burma at this stage is profitable?

ASSK : No, I don't think that investment in Burma at this stage is profitable for anybody. But if the Japanese were dealing with a government that truly represents the people, that would be another matter. But to be dealing with a government which is a dictatorial one, is really not the same as dealing with the people of Burma. So investing in Burma at the moment very often amounts to nothing more than support of the present regime.

―ビルマ市内を戦車が走っているわけではなく、人々は楽しそうな表情で、目に見える暴力を見た事がない、と日本報道陣がコメントしている。このコメントについてのあなたの感想は。

彼等は、街で狙撃される人を見たいのだろうか。無責任な態度だ。彼等が考えるべきことは、街中で目にすることではなく、目にしないことだ。例えば、服役中の政治犯や、毎日私達が受ける嫌がらせだ。毎日のように人々が拘束された話や逮捕された話を耳にする。昨夜誰が逮捕されたかを聞かなければならない生活は尋常ではない。街に戦車が走っていないことは、この国に問題がないことを意味しない。街に戦車の走る国は世界にいくつあるだろう。しかし、多くの国で人々の基本的権利が尊重されていないのだ。

Q : There have been comments made in the Japanese media that visitors to Burma have found there are no tanks in the street, that the people are happy and smiling, and there does not seem to be any visible violations taking place in the country.

ASSK : Do they want to see people being shot on the streets before they take action? I think that's a very irresponsible attitude. What they've got to think about is not what they see in the streets, but what they don't see. For example, the political prisoners in the jails of Burma. So what they see is not what counts, it's what they don't see that counts. The harassment to which we are subjected every day - every day almost, we hear about somebody who has been detained or arrested. It's not a normal life to have to ask, now who was arrested last night? This is not the way people should live, this is not the way people should be made to live. Just because there are no tanks out in the street, is no reason for saying there is nothing wrong with this country. How many countries are there in the world where there are tanks out in the street? And yet there are many countries in the world where the people are not allowed their basic rights.

―日本の開発援助や投資がどのように人々を助けると思うか。どんな環境下で日本からの投資がビルマ国民の助けとなるか。

投資や援助は、国民に対して責任感や信頼性のある政府が存在するときに有効なのだ。真に国民を代表する政府が存在するときに有益なのだ。

Q : There has been criticism that your support for sanctions against Burma is hurting the country. What is your response to that?

ASSK : My response to that is that it's a lot of nonsense, because it was not because of sanctions that Burma is in the economic mess that it is now today, it is because the country got into an economic mess that the sanctions have been so effective.

―日本人や日本政府がビルマ国民を助けるためにできる最も大切なことは何か。

現在NLDは国会開催を要求している。1990年の選挙結果が実行される事を要求しているのだ。日本や日本政府がビルマ国民のためにできることは、国会開催が民主化への第一歩であるとことを理解し、それを支持することだ。民主化が達成されるまで、日本がビルマを助ける方法はない。

Q: How do you think development aid and investment from Japan can help the people? In what circumstances would investment and aid from Japan help the people of Burma?

ASSK : Investment and aid will help the people of Burma when there is a government which is responsible and accountable to the people. That is to say, when there is a government that truly represents the will of the people.

―日本はビルマの経済を援助できると思うか。

自国に経済的問題を抱えている国が、ビルマのような貧しい経済を援助することはできない。日本が自国に問題を抱えている事を私は知っている。

Q : So what is the biggest step, or the most significant action that Japanese people and the Japanese government can take to help the people of Burma?

ASSK : At the moment the NLD has called for the convening of Parliament, that is to say we have asked that the results of the elections of 1990 be implemented, and I think the best way in which the people and the government of Japan can help the people of Burma is to help us with the convening of Parliament, to realize that this is the first step towards democratization, and until there is democratization, there is no way in which Japan can help the people of Burma.

●若者と<自由> Youth and Freedom

―あなたはどんな学生時代をすごしたか。

ごく平均的な学生だったと思う。毎日の規則正しい登校は嫌いだったが、先生方や勉強する事は好きだった。とくに大学はとても興味深かった。刺激があり、学生に知識を与えると同時に、学生からアイデアを思い付かせるような教育が好きだ。教育とは、書籍からなにかを学ぶだけではなく、周囲の世界について学ぶことだ。そして、私は京都でもその機会を得た。

Q : Let me just briefly introduce our university. Kyoto Seika University was founded 30 years ago. This interview is a part of a series for our 30-year anniversary, beginning with you, and then Dr Ramos Horta, who is active in support of East Timor, and lastly, the Dalai Lama. Our goal, and our ideal, is "freedom and autonomy". Therefore, we'd like to ask you some questions. First, how was your school-days life, and your university life?

Daw Aung San Suu Kyi : Well, I think I was just an average school-girl, in the sense that I was not that overjoyed to go to school every day, but I liked my teachers, and I liked learning. My universities were very interesting. I think I prefer university education to school education, because I am not so fond of learning by rote. I like the kind of education that is stimulating, and that invites ideas from the students, as well as of course teaching them a lot. I spent some time in Kyoto, with Kyoto University, and that I found very very interesting, because I think education is not just something that you get out of books, it's learning about the world around you, and I had an opportunity to do that in Kyoto.

―ビルマの大学の現状を教えてほしい。

今日ビルマの大学は閉鎖されている(注7)。権力者は大学を開くと学生間で問題が生じると神経質になっているからだ。これは社会の寂しい一面を映している。学生をおとなしくさせるために大学を閉鎖し続けなければならない国とは、容易ならざる問題を持った国と理解せねばならない。ビルマはそんな問題を持っているのだ。我が国の教育の水準はここ数年で着実に低下している。かつて教育面で、ビルマは最も進歩的な国だったが、今では最も後進的な国になってしまった。

Q : Could you describe a little about the conditions and situation of Burma's universities?

ASSK : Well at the moment the universities in Burma are closed, because the authorities are nervous that if they open the universities there will be trouble among the students. This is a very sad reflection on our society. In any country where universities have to be kept shut to keep the students quiet, there have to be very very grave problems. So there are grave problems in Burma, and our standards of education have been dropping steadily over the years. At one time we were one of the most progressive countries, educationally, in our part of the world. Now we are about the most backward.

―あなたは日本で1年間生活されている。日本の学生や大学についての印象をお聞かせいただきたい。

京都では研究者や大学院生と研究をしていたが、ビルマについて学んでいる学生にビルマ文学の講演を行うために他の大学を訪問したことがある。ビルマの学生と比較して、日本の学生は先生に対して尊敬の念が希薄であることに少し驚いた。もちろん日本の大学は、ビルマの大学はどこよりもはるかに設備は整っていた。だから、日本の学生はビルマの学生に比べて知識を得たり、教育を受ける機会が豊かであることは確かだ。

Q : As you mentioned, we know you spent a year in Japan. What is your impression of Japanese spirit, and Japanese universities?

ASSK : Well, in Kyoto of course I was only working with post-graduates and with members of the faculty, but I did visit Osaka University at one time, to speak about Burmese literature, to some students who were studying Burmese there. I have to say that I was a little surprised to find that the Japanese students are less respectful towards their teachers than Burmese students. The university of course was far better equipped than anything that you would find in Burma, so there is no doubt about it that Japanese students have far better opportunities than Burmese students of acquiring knowledge and of furthering their education.

―あなたにとって自由とは何か。

自由とは、潜在力を発展させるための機会だと思う。他人の自由を考慮した上で、であるが。自分自身の自由だけを考える事はできない。自分の自由が他人の自由を脅かすようなら、それは自由とは言えない。それは不正義だ。だから自由と公平は均衡がとれていなければならない。

Q : Let's go on to the question of the problem of freedom and liberty, and the problems in Burma. Currently, what do you think about freedom? What is freedom for you?

ASSK : Freedom I think is the opportunity to develop your full potential, but always of course in the context of the freedom of other people. You can't just think about your own freedom. If the exercise of your own freedom infringes on the freedom of other people then it's not freedom,it's injustice. So I think freedom and justice have to be balanced.

―あなたは10年近くも、大変厳しい状況下におかれている。あなたの行動を支えているものは何か。

私を支えてくれている要素は沢山ある。私が民主化運動をする理由は平和、自由、を基本的人権として信じるからだ。しかし同時に、信念に対して犠牲を払い、困難に直面する準備のできている人々や仲間がいるからでもある。そのことが私を前進させてくれるのだ。また私自身の父親、マハトマ・ガンジー氏、ネルソン・マンデラ氏のような人々も私を勇気づけてくれている。また苦境、貧困や困難からの解放を願っているビルマの人々の存在も私を助けている。

Q: We know that you have worked and persevered under this condition for about ten years. What is your motivation, and what supports you to go ahead, under these severe conditions?

ASSK : Well, there are a number of factors that help me to continue. The reason why I entered the movement for democracy is because I believe in such concepts as peace and freedom, and basic human rights, but what helps me to go on is the fact that there are many people, many colleagues, who are prepared to make all kinds of sacrifices and face all kinds of difficulties for what they believe in, and that helps me to go on. I must also say that I'm inspired by people like my father, leaders like Mahatma Gandhi and Nelson Mandela, and also I'm helped by the plight of the ordinary people of Burma, their helplessness, their poverty, the fact that they are so afraid, the fact that so very few of them even have any hope of escaping from this trap of fear and poverty, all these help me to go on. And I suppose there must be something in me basically that keeps me determined to continue along the road of something in which I believe.

―21世紀に活躍する若い世代にコメントをいただきたい。

視野を広げ、同胞意識を持って全世界を受け入れる事、他人の困難を感じ取ることのできる、より大きな心を持つことが大切だと思う。自己中心的になることが最も恐ろしいことだ。世界で起こる残虐行為や悲劇は、自己中心的考えと、人間の諸問題に対する理解力の欠乏が根源となっている。だから、若者が持つべき目標は広い心を獲得することだろう。

Q : We would like to have your comment to the 21st Century generation, including especially university students. What would you like to say to the younger generation?

ASSK : Well, first of all, I think the most important thing is that they should be broad-minded, that they should have a largeness of spirit, that will enable them to embrace the whole world as a brotherhood, and which will enable them to feel for the difficulties of others. I think selfishness is one of the most frightening things in this world. It is selfishness and lack of understanding of other people's troubles that are responsible for the cruelties and terrible tragedies that take place in this world. So I would recommend largeness of spirit as the first goal towards which young people should work.

―日本の大学生へメッセ-ジを。

特に日本の学生は、広い心を持つように努力する義務がある。なぜなら、彼等はとても恵まれており、特権があるからだ。ビルマの学生にとって、日本の学生は他の惑星から来た人々のように見える。彼等はビルマ学生が生涯けして目にしないような物質的豊かさに恵まれていて、それを他者に与えるという責任を持っている。所持すればするほど与えるべき責任は一層増えてゆく。もしも、他人に与えようという意識が心の中になければ何も与える事はできない。

Q : Any special comment for Japanese university students?

ASSK : I think Japanese students particularly have a duty to work towards a largeness of spirit, because they are so fortunate, they are so much more privileged that many other students in the world. Compared to Burmese students, they are almost like people from another planet, because they have so many opportunities, they have material goods that many Burmese students will never never see in their lives. Because they have so much, they also have a responsibility to give. The more you have, the greater a responsibility you have to give. And you cannot give unless there is something in your spirit that urges you to give to others.

―今は無理だが、ビルマで民主化が実現した後、京都精華大学へお招きしたい。お越しいただけるだろうか。

もちろん。

We would like you to have some time at our university after Burma is democratized -- if we invite you after democracy is achieved, could you accept our invitation?

ASSK : Oh, I'd love to come

Q : Thank you! Thanks very much for saying so!

ASSK : Not at all!

注1 ビルマ
1989年6月軍事政権は、英語での国名称のユニオン・オブ・バーマ(Union of Burma)からユニオン・オブ・ミャンマー(Myanmar)への変更を届けた。アウンサンスーチーはこれを認めず、「ビルマ」という呼称を使用するよう呼びかけている。欧米では多くのメディアが「ビルマ」の呼称を用いている。

注2 軍事政権
1962年3月ネ・ウィンが軍事ク-デタ-を決行して以来、軍部が政権を掌握している。

注3 NLD
1998年9月、アウンサンスーチー、アウン・ジー、ティン・ウーが中心となり結成した政党「国民民主連盟」National League for Democracyの略。

注4 SPDC
タンシュエ上級大将が議長をつとめる国家平和発展協議会(SPDC)が現在政権中枢を握っている。

注5 外資企業
軍事政権による民主勢力弾圧に制裁を加えるため、多くの国はビルマへの経済援助、投資を控えている。例外的に日本政府は大規模の無償援助を行い、日本企業は投資を行っている。軍事政権を延命させるものであるとの批判も強い。

注6 ラング-ン市外に出ようとした際に車を包囲された
1998年6月ラングーン市外への移動を軍事政権に阻止されたのを皮切りに、1998年8月までに数度にわたり同様の移動阻止に行き当たる。アウンサンスーチーは移動を阻止された地点で抗議の意思を表明するために数日にわたる車内籠城を行った。

注7 今日ビルマの大学は閉鎖されている
軍事政権は民主化運動を封殺するため、96年以来大学を閉鎖している。

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